There was a knock at my door today... guess who?

A place where I comment on various issues; you're welcome to respond.

Re: Continuation

Postby pile » Wed Nov 26, 2008 5:07 pm

ChristianityIsStupid wrote:"No one has proven a single word of it false"
No one has proven Harry Potter isn't real. Do you even understand how this works?


Matthew 24:34, Mark 13:30, Luke 21:32 :

"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things [the end of the world] be fulfilled."

Which generation is Jesus referring to? I know of nobody from biblical times who is still alive, so something obviously went wrong.


here's my favorite:

Matt 13:31-32: " "the kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed which…is the least of all seeds, but when it is grown is the greatest among herbs and becometh a tree."

There are 2 significant errors here: first, there are many smaller seeds, like the orchid seed; and second, mustard plants don't grow into trees.

Seems pretty false to me.
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Re: There was a knock at my door today... guess who?

Postby pile » Wed Nov 26, 2008 5:39 pm

by the way, it makes things easier to read if you guys use the [quote]xxx[/quote] functions, and make sure the "disable BBCode" box isn't checked.
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Re: There was a knock at my door today... guess who?

Postby ChristianityIsStupid » Wed Nov 26, 2008 7:00 pm

pile wrote:by the way, it makes things easier to read if you guys use the
xxx
functions, and make sure the "disable BBCode" box isn't checked.


It is on by default in my profile. It is off when I post and I see no way to turn it on.
I wonder if it is because I am using the Google Chrome browser.
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Re: There was a knock at my door today... guess who?

Postby pile » Wed Nov 26, 2008 7:17 pm

Maybe there's some bug - I have to go in and edit peoples' post and un-check the "Disable BBCode" option.... but I see some people that have it working.
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Re: Continuation

Postby Theosophus » Sat Dec 06, 2008 6:35 am

Pile wrote:

Matthew 24:34, Mark 13:30, Luke 21:32 :

"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things [the end of the world] be fulfilled."

Which generation is Jesus referring to? I know of nobody from biblical times who is still alive, so something obviously went wrong.


here's my favorite:

Matt 13:31-32: " "the kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed which…is the least of all seeds, but when it is grown is the greatest among herbs and becometh a tree."

There are 2 significant errors here: first, there are many smaller seeds, like the orchid seed; and second, mustard plants don't grow into trees.

Seems pretty false to me.



Response:

The generation to which Jesus was referring was "this generation" -- which has at least two possibilities: 1) He could have been referring to His own generation. In which case, something is obviously wrong because that generation has clearly passed. Most, if not all, early Christians thought this to be the case and fully expected Jesus to return in their lifetime. 2) The generation He was referring to was the same one He mentioned just a few verses earlier in each of the passages you cited. Note that He said, "Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender, and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; even so you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door." There are two clues here: first of all, He said the analogy was a parable - similar to an allegory. The items in parables have symbolic meaning. Second, why did He specifically use a fig tree as an example, rather than a generic tree? Very often the nation of Israel is referred to as a fig tree. That "fig tree's" branches became tender and put forth leaves in 1949 when Israel became a nation again. There is some debate as to what constitutes a generation, but I think we can all agree that if Jesus is true to His word, He will return within the lifetime of someone born before 1949.


Now about the "mustard seed" example: To someone living in first century Judea, the mustard seed was the smallest seed known to them. Even if Jesus had known of the orchid seed, to mention that to His audience would have been unnecessarily confusing. Jesus spoke in the terms they knew. His point was that something very small could grow into something much larger. He wasn't teaching science, but faith. Mustard seeds don't grow into trees? That depends on what you call a tree. Let's not quibble over semantics. According to Webster's, a mustard plant can be properly called a tree.
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Re: Continuation

Postby pile » Sat Dec 06, 2008 12:23 pm

Theosophus wrote:The generation to which Jesus was referring was "this generation" -- which has at least two possibilities: 1) He could have been referring to His own generation. In which case, something is obviously wrong because that generation has clearly passed. Most, if not all, early Christians thought this to be the case and fully expected Jesus to return in their lifetime. 2) The generation He was referring to was the same one He mentioned just a few verses earlier in each of the passages you cited. Note that He said, "Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender, and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; even so you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door." There are two clues here: first of all, He said the analogy was a parable - similar to an allegory. The items in parables have symbolic meaning. Second, why did He specifically use a fig tree as an example, rather than a generic tree? Very often the nation of Israel is referred to as a fig tree. That "fig tree's" branches became tender and put forth leaves in 1949 when Israel became a nation again. There is some debate as to what constitutes a generation, but I think we can all agree that if Jesus is true to His word, He will return within the lifetime of someone born before 1949.


That's a ridiculous amount of rationalization there... "Very often the nation of Israel is referred to as a fig tree." Oh please. And like a fig tree, israel was "tender" when it became a nation in 1949? Prophesy? LOL Was it referred to as a fig tree during the time of Jesus? You mix-and-match metaphors from completely different eras in an attempt to reconcile the contradictions. You can't honestly do this and claim it makes sense. Hey, I can tell you a story about how an elephant hatches from a chicken's egg, but it will involve a significant degree of very creative interpretation, and going back and forth from figurative to literal translation. That's just crazy.

If you apply common sense in the process of interpreting scripture it doesn't need so much elaborate exegesis. Jesus talking about impending judgment day is not any different then than it was among those now who speak of the same thing. You can't get people motivated if you say, "Jesus is coming some time in the next 700 years... get your act together!" So their standard policy was to scare people into conformity by suggesting the end was upon them any day now. They've been doing it ever since, and every single one of them has been wrong. And entire religions like the Jehovah's Witnesses have been created to cover the mistakes made by earlier "prophets" who made second coming claims that turned out to be false.

Theosophus wrote:Now about the "mustard seed" example: To someone living in first century Judea, the mustard seed was the smallest seed known to them. Even if Jesus had known of the orchid seed, to mention that to His audience would have been unnecessarily confusing. Jesus spoke in the terms they knew. His point was that something very small could grow into something much larger. He wasn't teaching science, but faith. Mustard seeds don't grow into trees? That depends on what you call a tree. Let's not quibble over semantics. According to Webster's, a mustard plant can be properly called a tree.


[Noah] Webster was notorious for promoting Christianity. You can't count on his publication as any objective reference. For example, under the word "light" Webster adds "Christ" as a definition. (see "Noah Webster and the American Dictionary" By David Micklethwait) Webster was famous for "Christianizing" modern language - he even added a bunch of flowery crap in the definition of "lion".

In any case, If Jesus is God and god is all-knowing, then god knows that the mustard seed is not the smallest seed. If he wanted to make a statement, that's fine, but he didn't say "smallest of the seeds you have" or "smallest seed known to you". He said "smallest of all seeds." Hardly something an "all-knowing" deity would say, because in that point it would be a lie. And we all know that god doesn't like lies.

You can't have it both ways. Either Jesus is a liar, or the book was written by men based on their exclusive knowledge (and imagination) at the time.
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Re: There was a knock at my door today... guess who?

Postby Johann1901 » Sat Dec 13, 2008 12:21 am

Tone it down a tad?? I most certainly do not agree.

Religion has been painted so many colors, and has infiltrated our lives in a way that cannot be ignored, and should not be tolerated. I am not suggesting we take up arms, but I am saying we should counter it where we find it. I understand that some people are in situations where their jobs might be on the line, but as for our family members who are theists, they already love and respect us. You really do not have much to lose, other than a little self-respect.

Jesus once said, or was it Paul, that we should armor ourselves with the gospel of Jesus. Well, if they can, then so can we.

I live in a very conservative, highly religious part of the country where religion is broadcast, written about and practiced more than I have ever imagine possible, but I have no hesitation in engaging these people in debate. Thing is, we all need to know our stuff, and the more you know about religion, the better equipped you are to counter it. Most people have very basic argumentation skills, and we, as atheists, already know that their message has some serious flaws in it. It's easy to debate these people cause they are not religious scholars and most of them have never really read the bible end to end.

Join the local FreeThinkers chapter, or organizations such as Atheist United. They provide a great starting point for getting involved in activities that will counter religiosity.

However, rest assured that you will hardly ever have the satisfaction of getting a theist to look at his religion critically. They do not have the emotional intelligence to do that. This is not an insult. Many of them are highly intelligent people, and I love debating them for they challenge me and force me to seek more knowledge.

In order to change their minds, you first need to talk about their faith. Make them understand their faith, and to do that you need to understand it first. Study it, research it, and get to understand it firt. Only then will you be able to counter the other things they claim.

I thought the pamphlet was pretty good, and I will certainly use it.

Peace
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Re: There was a knock at my door today... guess who?

Postby JohnFrum » Thu Dec 10, 2009 2:26 am

How is an atheist incorrect?
Is there some theism that is correct?
Some evidence of some God?

I have always liked posing this problem to Christians:
Hypothetic conjecture: What if tomorow, science were to locate, discern and communicate with a "God", thereby proving the existence of such a being. Issue is, this "God" has nothing to do with any religious nonsense or supernatural fiction in any religion or any text. It is an an unknown being, yet proved to be a creation source. Would any Christian be willing to admit they had been mistaken about their personal imagination of Jesus and God?

Hell no. Is the answer to that one. They insist a God must exist; but it must be their personal ideal and tale of said "God". A tale that is so hoplessly convoluted and contradictory as to make sense to only those who imagine the voices in their head are God.

A preposterous scenerio, one might complain? Then we have to ask, other than keep ignoring history and extant texts, what do we do with the vast numbers of early Christians who claimed outright that the Jewish God was not really the High Unknown God and Jesus had been a DOCETIC non-human, no Jewish anything spiritual apparition?

I'm sorry folks but religion is delusion, the range of how bad that becomes dysfunctional insanity is entirely due to the genetic propensities which caused the syndrome. It is certain that the effects of delusion on the mind are progressive. One does not become sane via delusion.

If you are a believer and would insist you are not delusional or insane, you are welcome to simply answer a few questions about the matter. Your personal beliefs are a matter of what you have formed from the information you have taken in and processed to believe as factual reality. NO religion and NO God is a reality, countless have been claimed and believed, the only real fact that one can prove by the matter is that people make-up really weird nonsense then believe it.

How can a nonbeliever be incorrect? In two decades I have not seen a Christian apologist or a deist pose a suitable argument for consideration. One might ernestly believe there is a real Harry Potter because you read a book or saw a movie but it all has the same plausibility of reality. NOT.
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Re: There was a knock at my door today... guess who?

Postby cinna600 » Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:18 pm

You know you remind of once when I was face with an atheist trying to get me to argue about my faifth (do not worry I don't botter people with it) I could and can feel it in my bones that there is someone or something greater then us. Try to explain is it egge or the chicken that came. Am I living an illussion could be. But since I discovered Boudhism my Catholic foundations came to an halt. I came to this realization Atheists are right and so are people who believe in God.

Both sides can proclaim "I am right" because how can both proof beyond doubt that there is not an being that exists beyond our dimension of reality and that ther is a being out there. Besides if you are interested in structures looking at all the ritual in every religion and the rules they come back to one simple you do not to someone what you want to be done to you. And look at most of them for the practionors behave. They reunite for one event, some to genuily pray others, do it for show, and others to be in the company of others. Like you would for an event or concert.

In all I rather talk of my own discoveries and ad to that "I went because I needed company and the reconforting thought of someone keeping an eye on me like a parent would." It takes many years of get to a point where you realise Why am I here when I could be either walking or relaxing somewhere else. It is then that I ended going to stores just to brose and nurrish my need for companionship. That is why it is hard me to say yes you did the right thing. He thought he was doing the right.
It might dawn on him later that he should have read the flyer you tried to end him.

You are more open then I am I usually say briefly that I am not interested of earing about other religions. But I do understand the choice not believing. I find that it the best in fact since you rely on yourself and do not blam a higher powers for everything and you take responsability of who you are. Believing is simply away that use to let go of situation.
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Re: There was a knock at my door today... guess who?

Postby pile » Tue Feb 09, 2010 12:18 am

cinna600 wrote:I could and can feel it in my bones that there is someone or something greater then us.


Argument from personal experience.

cinna600 wrote: Try to explain is it egge or the chicken that came.


Argument from ignorance.

cinna600 wrote: Am I living an illussion could be.


Ontological argument.

cinna600 wrote: But since I discovered Boudhism my Catholic foundations came to an halt. I came to this realization Atheists are right and so are people who believe in God.


False equivalency.

cinna600 wrote:Both sides can proclaim "I am right" because how can both proof beyond doubt that there is not an being that exists beyond our dimension of reality and that ther is a being out there.


Shifting the burden of proof fallacy.

cinna600 wrote:
I find that it the best in fact since you rely on yourself and do not blam a higher powers for everything and you take responsability of who you are. Believing is simply away that use to let go of situation.


Red Herring.
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